Curse

Fitz Rinley · Nov 01, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

I am responding to a statement made by TaCktiX in another thread, “Yes, in the effort to keep the ingame economy stable against gold farmers, ArenaNet has successfully made the game near pointless.”

What exactly is the pointlessness? Why does someone want to farm? Do they want to farm out of a need to watch things fall down and give the death moan? If so, can farming designated areas with no drops be established where the common to rare is the fantastic animation of each and every death? (Certain bosses even having Unique deaths,

.)

Is the only reason to farm for the masses of wealth you obtain in order to “git moh jit”? If that is the case, how does this not create an imbalance against those players who want to play for the rewards in a normal non-grindfest way? (The grind is for reproduction boys, not a substitute for it.) This is not even following the idea that “casual” players are immediately put into that extreme disadvantage. Can farming be made possible without economic incentive and still be fun?

ANet has reduced the rewards of economic farming, but replaced them with 33 character based titular reasons to grind. And as far as I am concerned All PvP is grind-slaughter for Balth, Fame, etc.

I have 10 characters to develop because I want to play all of the game. Development of character is somehow seen as something you should only accomplish when you are ready to retire the character and give up the ghost. Being able to have the appearance that entertains you must be “Grinded”/ground for or “Dude, you just don’t miss the entire point.” Really? Why is the point finishing the game in armor you don’t want, with weapon skins you don’t want, just to grind another 10 months for the hopes that you can either afford 100k plus 50 ectoes for an item (or it will finally drop since most of what I want isn't something someone would bother to sell) to enrich a persona/character that has no story left to do?

I detest farming, even tho I do it occasionally. And it would be different if playing the game didn't require farming for Millions of gold to get skills, titles, armors, weapons, etc. This is the primary reason I am opposed to farming nerfs. All they do is increase the incentive for players to purchase gold from websites in order to finally get things done. (Why I have always proposed that farming nerfs make economic sense and increase supply to lower demand.) I'm both too stuborn and too cheap to buy the gold, as it is against my principle. But the rewards for play do not meet the needs of character aspirations/goals across so wide a field of play. Hence, it seems to me the only benefit or joy from farming is in being able to get everything (or close as possible). Why should one not be able to do this as a part of normal play?

So, my questions are:

If one wants to farm for the slaughter why does it have to have other rewards?
If one wants to farm for rewards, why does it have to be for monetary rewards instead of for the titles?
If one must farm for monetary rewards, why must it be allowed to injure the economy of the broader base of play?

DFrost · Nov 01, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Farming used to be a fun occasional pastime but now it is, indeed, pointless.

MagmaRed · Nov 01, 2007, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Whether you fit into this or not, MOST people feel something is 'worth more' to THEM when it is hard to get. This means it is either a very rare drop, and won't be seen by many people, and/or it is expensive.

If you want a Crystaline Sword with req 7, 15^50 20/20 and +30, its going to cost you a large sum of money, or take MONTHS, maybe YEARS to find/buy.

The reason is because people want what is valuable. They may want it because it allows them to show off their e-peen. They may want it because it is what fits their character. They may want it because other people want it.

It doesn't matter WHY someone wants things. But making ANYTHING accessible by ANYONE will ruin the economy. Next step is to make anything free, accessible by lvl 1 starters, and allowed in all games, regardless which ones you own.

If that happened, people would stop playing. Not everyone, but a LARGE amount of the players would stop.

I know you are not saying make anything available to anyone. But I see your logic leading in that direction. You want things simply because they fit the persona of your characters. I applaud that, and share that view. However, allowing you to gain weapons/armor with little to no work would throw the in game economy out the window. Doing that would make people quit, and the game would fail.

If you want items that are common and easy to get, be happy.
If you want items that are rare and hard to get, suck it up, and work for them.

super strokey · Nov 01, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

OT but is there actually crystalines like that? I cant imagine how much that would be worth.

VitisVinifera · Nov 01, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

personally I farm so I can make money to buy things I want that I can't farm, whether that's a different drop, or prestige armor

or I directly farm something that I want, such as an r9 Col Scim

I don't farm any more to make straight plats, because I'm always within 10k of being capped at 2000k, in fact I wind up buying a lot of ectos because I'm making straight plats just with quest rewards and normal merching junk doing them

Antheus · Nov 01, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Farming in GW was a unique challenge. In a game where everything was balanced for teamplay, going and clearing an area or part of it truly solo was somewhat rewarding.

There was a very great appeal of finding newer and tougher zones to farm. Ractoh's legendary spider farm generated an epic thread, so did many others.

The drive behind finding farming spots was simply doing the impossible.

Ultimately, farming was a simple equation of maximizing profits over time.

Farming was/is for most part also very accessible. Need some cash, farm for an hour, get 10-20k.

Overall, it was emergent gameplay, a game within a game for some, money making method for others, something different.

When talking about rewards, solo farming did just that. It offered 8 times the reward of going in with a group. With loot scaling, this went away, and made solo farming somewhat pointless.

ThyNecromancer · Nov 01, 2007, 09:15 PM // 21:15

The point of farming it to get that item that you want and/or money. If you don't farm for that item you have to buy it from someone else who has it, which means you need money.

1) What's the point of killing something if there is no reward?
2) Titles can't buy you new armor, weapons, other items. Titles are only a way to get players playing the game and to keep their interest. Also, why would Bill Gates make an insane amount of money? I mean he has the title of "American entrepreneur, philanthropist and chairman of Microsoft" why have all that money? Shit.. he has 3 titles...
3) Any structured online rpg has to have a monetary structure of sorts of the game will fail. Hense why amet has reset the game economy at least once. (I remember ecto being 13K each)

VitisVinifera · Nov 01, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

When talking about rewards, solo farming did just that. It offered 8 times the reward of going in with a group. With loot scaling, this went away, and made solo farming somewhat pointless.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. I believe loot scaling only scales junk whites and blues. I don't believe loot scaling effects golds, uniques, rare crafting mats (ectos, etc) and collector items, keys, dyes.

Jecht Scye · Nov 01, 2007, 09:19 PM // 21:19

I'm happy with the current economy system I think. Everyone complains but I think this is the most fair it has ever been.

Fitz Rinley · Nov 01, 2007, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Magma Red, I hear what you are saying, but I doubt I will ever understand them. It is like the New York Times survey about 20 years ago when 80% of women surveyed said the first thing they consider before dating a man is his income. Which to me means 80% of relationships are prostitution.

You are right. I have two goals in game, being able to help friends, guildies, and stuck players through areas and being able to express my avatars persona. You are also right that I am not saying one shouldn't have to get to certain places in the game before one can do that. But I do not see why one should be months or years through with all other aspects of the game before one can do that (the current condition).

And why should people want things to be rare and valuable unless their intent is to impose power/leverage over and against other players for selfish benefit? And is it for this reason that things are done in a completely illogical way - Luxon and Kirsick weapon makers who do not make Jade and Amber weapons - but everything else in their life is made of Jade and Amber. (And no, I don't want those weapons. I find the implementation illogical and contraposited against the cultural description.)

What is amuzing is, wanting items that are common does not mean you can get them. I would like a certain shield, req 0, AL8 in Istan - no one is going to sell it, and it is not going to drop for me. But it is a common item. However, I can outfit ALL of Elona's, Cantha's, and Tyria's hammer warriors and mesmers with new equipment weekly (ok, I exagerated by 10%,

).

But what I get from you is that the only reason people farm is for economic power, and not because they want to farm. Farming for titles, for slaughter, etc. is not acceptable. Only the gold matters.

Jecht Scye, I agree that currently the economy is the most limiting it has ever been, and hence all new players and casual players from as far back as start are relatively equal. The claim that anyone can just grap 15k in an hour does not meet with my experience. If that were true, then I would have 10 maxed characters, all maxed heroes, a full guild hall, and still have maxed storage.

Esan · Nov 01, 2007, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Farming used to be pointless in a non-item-intensive game like GW. Since GWEN, however, it is worthwhile to farm for gold, mats and skill points for consumables, particularly Celerities and Powerstones.

Lord Feathers · Nov 01, 2007, 09:40 PM // 21:40

All games have some sort of grind and farming is used for many to obtain the gold, items, or titles they want. What exactly did you think you were going to get for answers ?

Fitz Rinley · Nov 01, 2007, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThyNecromancer

1) What's the point of killing something if there is no reward?

Killing Charr has its own special reward. No money needed.

Quote:

2) Titles can't buy you new armor, weapons, other items. Titles are only a way to get players playing the game and to keep their interest. Also, why would Bill Gates make an insane amount of money? I mean he has the title of "American entrepreneur, philanthropist and chairman of Microsoft" why have all that money? Shit.. he has 3 titles...

I personally don't feel he needs all that money. It is in his case, just another title, and a way to buy the titles you mention. Money is too often equated to being a successful human being. Money has nothing to do with being successful as a human being, and titles like philanthropist can be achieved by any rich jerk that wants to buy it, just as well as by the rich and honestly compassionate. Since such titles increase your ability to make deals for more money, get government benefits, etc. having them may only be another aspect of doing more business.

Quote:

3) Any structured online rpg has to have a monetary structure of sorts of the game will fail. Hense why amet has reset the game economy at least once. (I remember ecto being 13K each)

I remember Sup of Absorb being 100k. I still don't know why as I do not see it as very useful in comparison to other runes. I have seen economic changes in GW. And I agree it is currently more limited than it has ever been. However, those who purchase gold and those who area grandfathered in (had maxed their accounts before exploits were taken away) are still part of an extreme elite who get anything they want at any time, while using that leverage to prevent new and casual players from having equitable access to the limited supply of goods. Because the ebayer's for gold exist all persons with money/maxed accounts are subject to suspicion as ebayers and the achievements of the honest overshadowed with doubt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Feathers

All games have some sort of grind and farming is used for many to obtain the gold, items, or titles they want. What exactly did you think you were going to get for answers ?

Guild Wars is not All games. It is Guild Wars, the better, the invisioned, the next generation, the superior, the "All Games wish they could be GW."

I understand farming for title rank, which IMO is excessive in point requirement. I understand having to look around for a little while to get something that you want or interests you - not months or years, or being so far out that there is no point in bothering. I looked at what Obsidian costs in time and resources 2 years ago, watched parties TPK on landing in UW and decided never to bother for any of them. Once they became a status symbol of the elite perfection of superior souls intended to rule the lives of all other GW players I ceased to have anything but contempt for them.

VitisVinifera · Nov 01, 2007, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I remember Sup of Absorb being 100k. I still don't know why as I do not see it as very useful in comparison to other runes.

back when sup abs were 60-100k, they also affected elemental damage. Some time later, the drop rate of sup abs increased dramatically (this was confirmed in an update note), and they were nerfed so that they only reduced phys dam.

dont feel no pain · Nov 01, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

we are all searching for the holy grail, but it always changes...which refreshes the point.

Age · Nov 01, 2007, 10:02 PM // 22:02

There are lots of goals I have set for myself as well with my chars. but I have cut down on farming.Why because I am just waiting it out when there will be less players on the server and if I still don't get what want by the time GW 2 comes out I won't be buying it.I will continue to work on the what I want in GW1 and I expect changes when that does happen as GW1 will be practically dry.

I am just waiting for the day if Anet decides to lift the nerfs on farming and running and possibly make the game fun agian.I won't be buying GW2 untill I have fineshed all that I want to do in GW1 and might take break after that.I am not farming as much or running.

Bryant Again · Nov 01, 2007, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by dont feel no pain

we are all searching for the holy grail, but it always changes...which refreshes the point.

I found my holy grail in my fiery dragon sword. Now I just farm for the monies to add sets to my armor collection.

Martin Alvito · Nov 01, 2007, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

So, my questions are:

If one wants to farm for the slaughter why does it have to have other rewards?
If one wants to farm for rewards, why does it have to be for monetary rewards instead of for the titles?
If one must farm for monetary rewards, why must it be allowed to injure the economy of the broader base of play?

1) Who farms just to kill the same monsters over and over again? The only way anyone grinds is if grind has associated rewards.

2) Farming for monetary rewards has a drastically different scoring system. If I generate money faster than you, I can be just as rich as you or richer with considerably less time investment. If I want to have oodles of titles, the investment of massive quantities of time is a necessary condition. No matter how good/clever you are, you can't make Vanquishing or mission completion go THAT much faster...

Also note that farming is a short-run activity for most of us. It's something you do for an hour or two when you feel like it, and then you move on. If you tried to get 30 titles by investing an hour here and two hours there...it'll take you a while. I prefer my goals in smaller, more manageable chunks.

Figure it this way - when I want money, I farm; when I want other stuff, I do other stuff. I prefer to make money as efficiently as possible so as to have more time to spend achieving my other goals.

3) Good question. Honest answer: because ANet in the design phase adapted the same economic system used by previous MMORPGs that has failed so many times in the past. If ANet ties item possession to title grind in GW2, you'll get what you want here (no economy and no bots).

Some other notes:

I hate playing through the main campaigns. Hate it, hate it, hate it. If I could go anywhere I wanted and do anything I wished without having to be forced to do certain quests...I'd be a much happier PvE-er. I don't mind there being quests with desirable rewards...just let me choose when and where to do them! Clearly, you and I prefer different things.

The secondary market for items fails in many respects; it has to do with the transaction costs associated with reselling items, and the fact that ANet made a large category of items too common in Nightfall/GW:EN.

People want things to be rare and valuable because it connotes VALUE to have those items. I have a pair of Miniature Greased Lightnings. I'm not aware of anyone else with more than one, which makes me unique among GW players. I have a guildie that has a unique item (req 7 15% unconditional Long Sword - item is BLUE btw); same thing there.

People don't just farm for economic value alone; sometimes people set up a farm run as a challenge or thought experiment. (I wonder how much I can make doing...)

You CAN make 15k an hour playing GW these days. You'd better have:
a) finished all campaigns
b) be very good at the game
c) have friends who are very good at the game

for that to be the case. Knowing how/where to make money these days is a major competitive advantage, and it's gotten to the point where people keep such things quiet as a rule.

Martin Alvito · Nov 01, 2007, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I remember Sup of Absorb being 100k. I still don't know why as I do not see it as very useful in comparison to other runes.

Sup Absorb used to ROCK. It reduced damage by 3 *globally* (not just when you got hit on that body part) and in addition it reduced all *types* of damage (not just physical).

The upshot was that it was a lot harder to kill a Warrior (especially in PvP) than it is now; between that and the -2 from a shield (usually from an "in Stance") mod, a Warrior on, say, a Drok's run didn't take much damage from any individual attack.

VitisVinifera · Nov 01, 2007, 10:31 PM // 22:31

sup abs is still global........unless I missed something